The Public Charge Point Regulations 2023 & EVA England

The Public Charge Point Regulations 2023 & EVA England

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Take It EV podcast. I'm your host, Greg. And today, we've got an interview with James from EVA England. We're gonna be talking about the new regulations in the UK, and, you know, generally about the, what, folks at EVA England do. But, that doesn't mean that, you know, if you're from outside of the UK, There's nothing interesting in there for you.

Speaker 1:

I think everyone's curious about what's going on in the world of EVs and how governments adjust to the the new World. So we're discussing the public charge point regulations of 2023. There's links in the doobly doo, so check them out. If you're in England, you should be supporting EVA England. Even if you're a member of other groups, just just seriously, they need your help, and they do good stuff.

Speaker 2:

I'm James Court, and I'm chief executive of the EVA, the Drivers Association in England.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Take Your TV.

Speaker 2:

It's great to be here again.

Speaker 1:

So you're not stressed at all?

Speaker 2:

No. No. Not at all. It's all good. It's all good.

Speaker 2:

It's been a, yeah, it's been a really good Good month, actually, sort of in the height of the huge lashiness of kick or sort of Coordinated attack from the antis. It's actually been, on the one hand, nice that we can fight back and sort of find a voice And sort of do the some of the rebuttal stuff that I think our members want us to do, which is great. But obviously, it's that classic thing. Wish we didn't have to do it in the way it's being done, but that's you gotta, it's yeah. You gotta gotta play the cards that have been dealt.

Speaker 1:

So how how long has so it's, what day is it today? It's Thursday, 13th July. And, obviously, a couple days ago, the news kinda broke out that the, that the new public charge point regulation 2023 Is is gonna be out soon or is out. You know, the actual regulation is out. When does it come into play?

Speaker 1:

What role that did AVA England play in it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's I've sort of been taken aback by the response to it, because it's obviously something that we've been working on now for, got 2 years, and sort of predated me coming and sort of took over the campaign. And We've seen these things coming down the line, and all of it looked exciting. And I keep on trying to get people to be excited about it, but I guess sort of The, ChargePoint consumer experience consultation probably doesn't get people, Hugely excited. And then, obviously, this is a statutory instrument and, yeah, none of these words are particularly sexy.

Speaker 2:

But we've seen sort of a lot of work that I've also been doing And trying to influence it, and I think trying to also put a bulwark and really translate, no. This is a good thing, Like, writing to ministers and say, don't lose your nerve on this. What you are doing is a really, really good thing. And there were obviously pushbacks from from various groups. And it is just it's when when When the government does something good, it can occasionally take you by surprise.

Speaker 2:

And I think some of our job was just continuing to give them the confidence to do it. So sort of rising the ministers in this meeting with civil servants and just like, no. Keep going. Keep going. And I think until we eventually saw the regulations laid, There's always a risk that there's gonna be something.

Speaker 2:

There's gonna be some sort of sliding back, some sort of slipping. But that doesn't that hasn't happened. This is a slightly arcane parliamentary process, even more arcane than usual. It's secondary legislation, which means that it goes to the house. It Sort of sits in an imaginary box for a while.

Speaker 2:

And unless there's significant pushback from MPs, which never happens Sort of once in a 20 year cycle does a statutory instrument get overturned. And this certainly isn't anywhere near as Contentious. So, yeah, we don't anticipate any problems. So it should be regulations in 20 days or 20 working or 20 parliamentary days. And then for a lot of this stuff, you'll you've you've you've probably already seen some improvements as companies knew that it's going down the line.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, it's it's sort of between the various things. They've got 2 years to try and find roaming clubs. They've got 1 year To make the improvements in the, contactless and the price transparency. And then they've Got they've got a first report on the data and make that open in the next, 2 years. So hopefully, we'll see some huge improvements, over the next, yeah, 1 to 2 years.

Speaker 1:

So we've I mean, because we we just started talking about it, assuming that everybody's gonna know what we've been talking about. Yeah. Basically, Let me let me give a a quick intro. I mean, you you can correct me if if I'm wrong. But basically, we have this, you know, public charge point regulation of 2023 that lays out how charging points are gonna be Shed or or used by the public or what is the sort of you know, what is the minimum standard for them to be used?

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, contact us everywhere. 99% Uptime. Yeah. 247, helplines. It's all the charges 8 kilowatts or above, which is Yep.

Speaker 1:

Bit strange, but suppose that, you know, that's gonna lead to another Another bunch of questions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. We can get we can get to the 8 kilo one because it's it's interesting. I mean, just to to try and package what we've got Now and what's going through sort of better reliability, clearer pricing structures, easier payments, And Open Data, which for me is gonna be I think can be the real sort of revelation in this as even the best mapping tools have still only got sort of 70, 80 coverage. Annual, they're they're quite clearly not up to date and sort of, they're not always accurate. So I think the open data side of it hopefully should really make sure that if you go to a charger, you know that it is Working, and that's a huge improvement.

Speaker 2:

I think when I do long journeys, and I say this people, it's like, they're actually we do have enough charges for what we currently have, it's just you get bad experiences if you turn up to one that's not working. And that's the problem is that you can't guarantee That that charge where you think is gonna be there is actually gonna be there, and that does huge damage to public confidence. And then there's a whole other bunch of stuff When it comes to the innovation side of it, I think we saw the innovations, when TfL opened up their data on buses and tubes and all of that And just the explosion of sort of the third party applications on your phone and people coming up with smart and interesting ways to use data. As I said, if I was in any way, shape or form entrepreneurial and wanted to earn lots of money, certainly trying to do clever things with this data And what is gonna be a huge growing, market would be where I put my time and attention.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure, you know, companies like ZapMap and Blackshare are already, already busy at work. And, yeah, open data, like you say, is a is a big thing because it allows people to create services and integration, like, you know, into Google Maps, Apple Maps, whatever.

Speaker 2:

I mean, the goal is that everybody like, trying to get everybody to have The Tesla driving experience where it's sort of it it does all the thinking for you, and that's gonna be the goal ultimately. I mean, this is what makes Of the EV driving, probably for me, it's one of those areas that we can get better than petrol and diesel. It's that just you can get your car to be so intuitive You don't even have to think about these things. It's just part of the it's it's part of the software, that your car has. And this could lead the way for even Poor little Kia owners like me to get the Tesla experience when it comes to driving, and charging.

Speaker 1:

I mean, right, nothing wrong with a Kia. I'm driving a Kia as well. So

Speaker 2:

I love it. I've gotta be honest. The only if I could get if I could get any other car, I would just get the warm model up of the one I currently have, which is quite a boring answer. But, yeah, it'd be nice to have preconditioning. I've got the bottom of the range Kia, which is still bright.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, it'd be nice on hot and cold days to walk into a perfect car.

Speaker 1:

I've had a quick skim through the, you know, articles. I'm not a lawyer. So it's all it all sounds very strange to me when I read it, obviously. But 1st question that come came to my mind and I haven't heard anybody I skimmed the the Twitters and and interwebs, for all the possible, questions that people had. And oddly enough I haven't seen anybody, poo pooing on the, on the on the legislation on on Twitters.

Speaker 1:

Maybe I'm in the wrong Twitter, but, you know, I haven't seen anything bad being said.

Speaker 2:

No. Not on not yeah. Not on and I suppose there's 2 sides, isn't there? There's the anti EV people and then there's EV people that want sort of faster action on it. I haven't seen I mean, even if you're anti EVs, how can you possibly unless you've got a real sort of, Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You're you're sort of vindictive why do you campaign against this? And I think from the EV sort of driver's point, People will be wanting to see more action on things like VAT, and sort of quicker motorways and so more more motorway service, stations having more charges. All of that is obviously needed, but that these these regulations were never gonna touch that. So, no, I think they've been really warmly welcomed.

Speaker 1:

Is there anything in this legislation that, would fix the the bigger the the most asked question that I have from non EV drivers who are my passengers on the trips, which is why is no like, how do I find these charges without having any apps? Is is there any gonna be any, you know, signs pointing to a charger? Like, I would I would love to see a sign saying There's a charger in this hotel, or something like, this charger's busy, but the next one's 10 miles away. Just keep driving.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, that is a real frustration. And I've seen some sort of and and motorway service stations starting to have, Information on what charges they've got and how many are free. It's gonna be that that We could regulate on it. My hope is that people that have installed them will want these wanting to advertise that they've got them.

Speaker 2:

But it is a frustration if you haven't got mapping apps and also if you're driving on your own, you know, you don't always wanna be typing this stuff in. I have, you know, a couple of times driven into a service station thinking it was gonna have a charger, and it doesn't. And that sort of takes you by surprise a little bit. But no. There's no regulations on enforcing signage, It's something that I hope the industry and, obviously, it's a new industry, body, Charge UK.

Speaker 2:

It's gonna be these are things that I hope that they can either be doing and sorting out sort of internally and getting that experience much better.

Speaker 1:

Okay. I I thought I'd missed it, but, you know, because it seems like a like an obvious thing to me. Not not that I'm I'm not trying to be negative about the whole thing because it's obviously amazing that, you know, the whole thing is in place, the whole regulation. But I again, skimming through it very quickly, I didn't see anything.

Speaker 2:

No. I didn't. And it's even more not even and this is where I think people are missing a trick as well. Even going into the car park, and I'm I'm sure you Everybody listening has done this. You've driven in.

Speaker 2:

You know there are parking spaces. You know there are charging spaces there. But it's not immediately clear where in this huge car park The charging spaces are. So even having sort of simple things like a sign a couple of meters high saying electric charging, because that can be a frustration. He's all circling around the car park.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, a lot of this stuff. I mean, it is a very it's still quite a young industry, but there are some low hanging fruits that I'd hope the industry and, Yeah. The the CPOs, charge wheel operators, can start doing themselves.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I mean, when when you drive EV for a for a few years, you get a, like, a 6th Fence. When you when you get in a car park, you you kinda know where the charges might be. So

Speaker 2:

I haven't developed that 6th sense yet. Damn it.

Speaker 1:

I find myself kinda looking in spots like right in the front, to the left or right of the of the entrance or way in the back. It's usually like where I look.

Speaker 2:

That's true. Yeah. Very true.

Speaker 1:

But, yeah, I've been driving EVs for since 2015. So, you know, it's it's been a I I I haven't had a chance to to develop the 6th sense. So let's let's get into the the the the questions that I've heard the most. And, you know, in all fairness, You and Warren and some other people, from EVA have responded to loads of them. But, maybe Others have questions, and they haven't actually seen the the the responses the responses.

Speaker 1:

So the, this legislation applies to all charges 8 kilowatts and above, which presumably is on purpose kinda leaving out the destination charges. Why is that?

Speaker 2:

So there's a bit of history to this as well. It's that originally it was actually gonna be 7, kilowatts, and that was just on the edge for a lot of destination charges and some Post charges. So it's got bumped update. It's an imperfect sort of solution, but it covers up most of some of the discrepancies. And, again, you are gonna have things like Three phase of 8, 11 kilowatts and all of this sort

Speaker 1:

of Yeah.

Speaker 2:

There are there are challenges around it, and there could have been other ways to do it. But the government sort of A lot of that legislation was based around kilowatt sort of, bandings. So, yeah, imperfect. There was gonna be another consultation, and then in fact, there still may be of, under 8 kilowatts. But we sort of took the decision that whilst it would be Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

If everything had, if everything had contactless, just the cost of doing it actually runs against The quicker sort of rollout, especially the lamppost charges, which are pretty sort of cheap and cheerful things, around 600 to £800 to install on. And you're sort of hearing that that could, you know, it could add an extra 50 50%, a 100% in some cases if they needed to have contactless and sort of more maintenance on an ongoing basis. So we thought on the balance of it over the ease of using contactless versus, the need for getting more out there on that, especially that most lamppost and destination charges are done by residential people who already have the app and are familiar with it. So the chances of people getting lost trying to find their way to a 3 or 5 kilowatt lamppost charger, and not being able to pay we thought was reasonably Hello. So worth it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. And like I say, most most of them are gonna be used by residents. And anytime I'm in London and I see one, I'm tempted to use it, and I've got the app. But let's be honest, if you're in London, there's there's plenty of, RAPIDS as well.

Speaker 1:

So

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I wouldn't recommend it either. I mean, most of them I think my lamppost Georgia trickles out at, like, 2, 2 point something kilowatts, which is perfect for me. Most of London's residential parking anyway. So, yeah, don't think there's a lot of people that are popping up for a quick, oh, 2 kilowatt boost.

Speaker 2:

That's gonna be, that's gonna be helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's true. The 2nd most asked question that I've seen is, what about VAT? Because There is currently VAT on rapid charging, right, on the, on

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And that's part of a much wider campaign, which, obviously, Quentin and, Fair Charge are doing I mean, that is their sort of raise on debt. That is their campaign. We support it completely. It makes a lot of sense To us, and if you're somebody like me that relies on public charging, it would be a way of, I suppose leveling up some of the costs.

Speaker 2:

It's always gonna be cheaper to charge if you've got a driveway, and especially if you've got all the kit and solar panels and stuff that goes behind it. We it's very hard to see how there's ever gonna be genuine parity between people that rely on public charging and people that have got their own driveways, But this is a this is a simple way of doing it. Obviously, treasury always have reservations about cutting VAT whether or not, charge point operators are gonna be passing it on. And it's a difficult thing to try and tie up in a bow. But, you know, having faith having good faith in the chargebook operators, I hope that if they do Get this cup.

Speaker 2:

They would pass it on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And, yeah, like I say, it's it's it's a budgetary thing rather than,

Speaker 2:

a Regulatory thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thing. So, yeah, that's probably why. But a question that everybody's asking, and it's a I think it's a fair question. And like I say, Quentin Wilson and Fair Charge UK have obviously been campaigning about this for, like, as long as I remember. So, and, because the other the other question that I got asked is, This is gonna apply to the entire UK or just Great Britain or just England?

Speaker 2:

So it's across all 4 4 countries.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Okay. Okay. So not just England, basically. Because, I mean, is it worth saying that the, Scottish government with the whole, Charge Place Scotland, had something similar in place years ago or, you know, the the they obviously have their own regulation that, mandates that all the charging point points in Scotland have to be kinda available under the same, scheme.

Speaker 1:

Right? I'm not I I don't know exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I I'm actually I don't know about that. I'm actually going up to Edinburgh to Aberdeen, sorry, this weekend, I'm not a frequent traveler to Scotland, and we have our sister group, the the EVA Scotland who will probably be able to answer what it was before. Yeah. And I know there's lots of changes going on in the Scottish sort of charging, world.

Speaker 1:

Editing Greg here. I have posed this question to somebody we shall refer to as an CPS insider. Here's the response. It originally started as a way for Transport Scotland to facilitate EV uptake by providing a network of centrally funded, chargers operated at arm's length by Bacta, a follow on from Plucked In Places. The CPS brand is still owned by the transport Scotland, but none of the charges are.

Speaker 1:

Each is the responsibility of its respective host. As part of the agreement to receive grant funding for charges, Hosts had to sign up with CPS so that the nationwide network could grow. In early days, That also meant providing free electricity, but that's lapsed. As charges aged and get replaced. Owners are allowed to migrate to other CPOs if they like.

Speaker 1:

East Lothian, council is a good example. They have agreements with CPS and, charge dot g y, Connected Curb, and others to operate their own regional infrastructure, end of quote. So I just mean I I think this means basically that, yes, this stuff still applies to Scotland. And I was wrong kinda asking this question. Obviously, I didn't know exactly, how the, you know, Chargebee Scotland operates.

Speaker 1:

Even though I had guests in the past who do stuff, as as part of the CPS, We didn't go into, like, you know, law and agreements with the Scottish government, and perhaps I should have. Nobody emailed me, by the way. If If you have any other co questions or comments, just always email me take it e v at Gmail dot com. And now back to the interview with James. I think, being able to use contactless instead of having to apply and get a ChargePlace Scotland card, I think, is is an improvement overall anyway.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So yeah. Speaking of the 8 kilowatts, the, So if if a post has 11 or 22 kilowatts supply, does that mean that it's it it is then under this regulation. And Yeah. Are we at risk of having charge point operators with the essential charges that are, you know, above 8 kilowatts but below 23 or 24, whatever, turning off the the three phase just to kind of escape the regulations, you know. Because I I know famously, at Point Point, for instance.

Speaker 1:

They they build their chargers to be cheap to install. So they don't have any provisions for contactless for instance, but some of them are 32 kilowatts. So I do wonder what's gonna happen. Obviously, that's question for for them. But, do you have any, Have you heard anything about it?

Speaker 1:

Any

Speaker 2:

As I said, the the was it was a niggly issue. And they knew what they wanted to include, but it was hard to sort of although, sorry, they knew what they wanted to exclude. But, unfortunately, some of the terminology was was sort of overlapping in things that they didn't want to include. It's definitely that one bit is a little bit imperfect, but it was it it was hard to see how to do it in regulation otherwise. So I hope there aren't gonna be unintended consequences of that.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, I know there are companies that are concerned about that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. I yeah. I mean, I hope, you know, companies like Pod Point and and probably some others obviously have good intentions, but, We'll see what happens. So there was a I don't have that page open in front of me, but there's a wording in the in the regulation that basically states that, there's only a place to charge in points that are open to the public and open to all, car brands or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Like, I'm what I'm trying to say is basically what hap what about Tesla? Because obviously, you know, technically, superchargers are only for Tesla owners, at least in the UK and Europe. Obviously, it's this is gonna change in the US, with the whole, North American charging standards, stuff, but we're not talking about, North America. The, you know, Tesla has obviously famously opened some of the superchargers to, non e non Tesla drivers. But they could always say, you know, with this regulation, actually, we're not we're gonna turn that off because we just want to restrict this to to Tesla owners.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, they could do. It's so it's worth saying that only the Put only the the the sites that they have opened up to the public, under these regulations. And The vast majority of Tesla Tesla charges, obviously, they are a private network, so these these regulations don't impact them at all. Tesriff said that they want to open up all of their network, so they would have to comply with it when they do that.

Speaker 2:

But again, it's and we've had meetings with Ozev on this. There are lots of little, It it it's there are some exemptions that you look at, and it's really hard to judge whether or not. So is a church group That allows that sort of congregation to use it is that public. There is some leg legalese under it. So hopefully, again, it's one of those areas where There isn't any unintended consequences.

Speaker 2:

I think if we find that certain groups or have, it's it would be a not Not easy, but it certainly wouldn't be very difficult to amend this statute instrument if we did see things like that, if there were groups that suddenly find themselves in it, all the interpretation of it. Certain groups are finding themselves in it, that you could amend an Si. It's it's not it's neither easy nor is it hard, but it can be done if it's if it's a significant issue. And again, with Tesla, that Their route is definitely trying to open up more charge points and trying to get the charge points to compete. So they'll have to they'll have to adhere to that when they do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Again, some people may a lot of Tesla drivers will still and and a lot of drivers may still want to use the Tesla interface. The user experience on their apps are pretty good. So, yeah, it might it gives people the option hopefully down the line. But At the moment, I always think is that I I thought there was, like, 14 sites that are opened, but I think somebody corrected me and said there's 21 now.

Speaker 2:

But they're.

Speaker 1:

I I I really don't know because it's I think it changes. They they they they try to open more, but, I don't know how they how they, you know, pick those points. I I know there's more in Europe because,

Speaker 2:

I've been personally lobbying Tesla to try and open up more on my regular journey down to Devon. There there aren't any Tesla charging sites on either the a three zero three or m four and m five. So, yeah, my personal non EVA lobbying to Tesla will be can you open up some of these, charging sites on, my route back home?

Speaker 1:

Have you tried talking to Elon? No. I'm just joking.

Speaker 2:

I'll I'll DM him. I'm on threads. Is he on threads yet? I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I doubt it. But so, actually, speaking of Tesla, obviously, Tesla owners, enjoy the sort of the plug plug and charge, you know, experience. Does this regulation include any provisions for that? Because, you know, contact us is all nice and great, but wouldn't it be even better if you could just plug in their car and Kinda walk away. And

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That there's nothing on that, and that would be a difficult I think that's a higher that's a high hurdle.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. But

Speaker 2:

this is again, but these these are some of the areas where That that open data could try and develop things like that. And I think it gives, hopefully, Again, entrepreneurial people. The opportunity potentially to reserve and book could be a lot easier with this, and there could be some there could be business opportunities. Are wanting to do it, try and work with CPOs to try and come up with a booking and reservation system. Who knows?

Speaker 2:

This is one of those areas where I'm hoping, you know, a 1000 flowers bloom.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, I'm I'm yep. I like, again, I haven't seen anything about this, so that's why I thought I'll ask. But There always has to be room for future improvements. Right?

Speaker 1:

So Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things. Another question that I've seen from from loads of people is asking, you know, how is this gonna be policed? What are the penalties if CPOs don't adhere?

Speaker 1:

I know there's a section in the regulation

Speaker 2:

Let me flip to this. Let me flip to that section. Yeah. It's I think it's it's $10 a charger, that isn't compliant, and I think the right date goes up to $250 for serious breaches. The enforcement body I think it's also important that, especially when it comes to the reliability, An awful lot of the newest actors are already at 97, 98, 99%.

Speaker 2:

And we wouldn't want to see gaming of the system or trying sort of again, going back to that classic thing, unintended consequences, which is Always the issue when it comes to legislation. The 99% target should not be there to discourage people If they're doing a good job, I think it's something that hopefully will raise the bar on the providers that are already doing a good service without sort of being so onerous, and penal that it discourages. But we know there are some Chargepoint operates out there that are running down at sort of 75%, 85%, and that really isn't good enough. A lot of this work's gonna be done in the working group, which, the EVA have been invited to be, part of to try and figure out what that reliability Sort of statistics work, so there'll be a bunch of work that goes on behind the scenes there. And, yeah, as said, let's attack the really poorly performing ones first.

Speaker 2:

And I mean my personal feeling is if if you're running at 99% in January and then suddenly, you know, you've got a a disaster that happens And you've nudged down to, 98.9. I think if if if this was overly penal, then really, Yeah. Penalize people for that type of thing. I think it would be a that that wouldn't be what I think the intentions of the legislation are.

Speaker 1:

Okay. It it's just, you know, it's just it's a question basically, like, whether it's down to public to report, these things to somebody or whether it's whether it's kinda like self, policing. No.

Speaker 2:

No. No. That's I mean, they've gotta they've gotta put in a, full report to the section of state and others, and there will be an enforcement body, that is announced that we'll be looking at this. And again, so the data and there's the open data side, and then there's even more sort of onerous, data that they've gotta provide to the secretary of state, And that will be figured out by the enforcement body.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Okay. That's good to know that there's, you know, an outside body looking into this. Is is this Well,

Speaker 2:

I think there will be. You know? And and, again, there will be there will there will still be a role for EVA and and your listeners. I mean, If if it's noticeable that the data isn't reflective of the real world, then we'll have to sort of delve into why that is. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So there will still be a a role for that, but you'd hope that you can trust the data, especially if it's if you're having to write to the section of states. And there is a huge fine if you falsified sort of your data or breach that. So, yeah, hopefully, nobody will be nobody will be sort of Fiddling the fiddling the numbers.

Speaker 1:

Let's hope so. The I

Speaker 2:

would advise it.

Speaker 1:

Is is is this 99% per site or overall on the network.

Speaker 2:

The overall network average.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So there's still a risk that basically, you know, a particular region is gonna be Pretty low on the reliability, but they have to they're gonna have to catch up on everybody else, basically, on on everything else to, to to, to make that happen. Okay. Again, this is, you know, this is the 1st time that I think this sort of regulation is going in. So

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I think there is I'm I'm keen to talk to members about some of this stuff As well, I sort of on again, on Twitter over the last couple of days, people saying, well, this will just lead to charges being taken off. Again, on my sort of steer on it, Is that a charger that only works 50% of the time is worse than not having a charger there in the 1st place? I would actively want them to take that charger and decommission that charger because there is nothing worse than turning up to a charger and it not working. That is the worst case sort of Scenario.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, take them out if they're that unviable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's true. That's true.

Speaker 2:

But I'm open to that. And I'm, you know, keen to hear other what members think But but that's my sort of that's that's my instinct.

Speaker 1:

So, how quickly do you think this is gonna, be rolled out? What what do you see happening in the next couple months or to towards the end of the year?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, they've got a year to comply for the contactless stuff. For some, it's difficult. And again, we supported some of the ChargePoint, industry. I think there were god.

Speaker 2:

Was it the some of those the the the Non ultrarapids. They might had to have installed them within 3 months, and the product just isn't there yet. So I think that was I think it was sensible to push that out to a year and give people time to create the products and the literal hardware for this. But we would hope that any infrastructure that goes in from now sort of you would it would it would make sense. You wouldn't wanna be retrofitting stuff you've only just put in.

Speaker 2:

So I think we'll start seeing the rollout reasonably quickly. And then again after the year, they they'll it it will be a necessity to do it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I I I think the, anybody who's installed a charger in the last, say, 2 years and didn't, put in a contactless terminal. I I don't know what what what you're doing, basically, is the question. Like, because, yeah, because everybody is now expecting. I mean, When I started driving the EV, like, 8 years ago now, you know, you had to collect stack of cars to be able to charge.

Speaker 1:

You couldn't just turn up at the charger. Sometimes you could call them. There was there'll be a number on the charger. So then you could call them and be like, I didn't know, and plead with them, and they'll turn it on for free. I I mean, I had 1 lady that, basically said to me, if you have a and I still remember this as a say.

Speaker 1:

I think it was, I can't it was some sort of a Midlands network, charged Midlands or something. I can't remember what it was called. Something Midlands. Doesn't matter. Doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 1:

The, she basically said, if I have any blank cards or cards that have expired, Can I just press it on the charger and she will program the card that way? And bless her heart, it did work. And I I could use because she didn't know like, I didn't give them any payment details. That card worked for, like, 2 years, that I could have used. I I I was, like, I was using it, without any problems.

Speaker 1:

I did order a couple of

Speaker 2:

into this? It's just a bit of a sort of swizz that you had for a couple of years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Do you wanna run up to this? I don't know when the the statute of limitations on theft towards something Midlands.

Speaker 1:

I didn't sign up, to I think it was free anyway. But they wanted you to have your details, basically. And, you know, I kinda I I I skipped that step, but, that was very nice of that lady to, to enable it. Still remember that. I probably still have that card somewhere in the it was like a purple blue card, from, something something.

Speaker 1:

Doesn't matter. Like I said, it doesn't exist anymore. It's probably got integrated into polar or or charge you Well, probably because people probably because

Speaker 2:

they were giving away free charges, And people ripping them off for years with, with this new hack that we found out about. They went fast.

Speaker 1:

I doubt it. I doubt I doubt that's just me driving there, you know, 3 times a year. Something that I want. Yeah. I mean, back in the day, you you literally just Filled out the form, and they would send you a card for they might charge you a tenner to send it in the post, but generally, there would be no charge for actually charging.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes they wanted you to pay, like, a yearly subscription, whatever. Those were the days, basically. But back in the day, you know, like, I had a 30 kilowatt hour LEAF. I could do 90 something miles, on it. So any charger that worked Oh, you you you you did hassle to to, to get it working, even if that meant calling somebody in a in a in a center to The

Speaker 2:

early the early pioneers of the revolution.

Speaker 1:

Those are the days. Whereas now so I I can I yeah? Almost forgot when I started this rant. So Nowadays when I drive around, you know, back in the day when when we were early pioneers, people helped each other. We we used to talk to each other at the charging, points.

Speaker 1:

Whereas now you turn up to a charger, you're trying to smile at somebody, and they're just like in a typical English fashion, they just don't wanna look at you anymore. And I'm kinda try I'm trying to observe what

Speaker 2:

That's good. That means we've hit the mainstream. Exactly. Once once yeah. People start acting English around that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. We just need to figure out how we can queue in a very English way.

Speaker 1:

I'm trying to see so I'm trying to observe what people do. And quite often, I see that, people just use contactless. They don't even bother with, like, apps or whatever, you know. That's a good thing. And I think just people these days just expect contactless to be there.

Speaker 1:

And anybody who's put a a charging point in the last 2 years, like I said, without a without 1. What are you doing? Yeah. You know?

Speaker 2:

I've got listen. I've I haven't got much sympathy for that.

Speaker 1:

No. Like I say, there's there's enough charges in the UK for general public to use with the the EV ownership being at whatever percent it is now. But we only get bad press if the charger is not working for whatever reason technical or or or vandalism or whatever. Or if there's a queue, especially, you know, during the the the the the peak season. And this this leads me out to, to the to the next question is, like, have you heard anybody saying anything negative about this legislation?

Speaker 1:

You know, the the the usual anti net zero campaign trolls and, I don't know, snowflakes, I I I would like to call them. You know, they usually just, rock up just minutes before something goes into effect, because that's when they think they can bully people into, not doing anything good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I I I haven't seen it. I haven't seen sort of the net zero or the, yeah, the the the Tyraj, the the deluge of FUD that's been going on in the last 2 weeks, you would have to be particularly vindictive to be arguing against Sort of use making ChargePoint more easy for people to use. Yeah. And I think going back to your last point around around the queuing, This is an area that we've gotta get better at.

Speaker 2:

I say we. The industry has to get better at because I think I'm very aware in sort of talking about you as sort of an early pioneer And then sort of you get to the early adopters, and I think I'm in the early adopter stage. We are getting to the early mainstream. And this is one of those areas where it can be very off putting for people. Like, I have to have a conversation with someone to queue.

Speaker 2:

I've run another queuing system. Sometimes you you know, do I have to exert myself? Do I have to you know, what if someone just sort of bullies you out of it? These rule These are things that when we get to the mainstream, and I think this is why these regulations are also so important, although don't cover this side of it, is that The experience to date is good. And as you said, most EV drivers, they got a plan a, and then they got a plan b, and sometimes have a plan c.

Speaker 2:

And, again, when I'm driving down Devin, I've already got that because I've done it a few times. If I'm in a new area, I definitely have a plan b in my head. That's not really good enough for a mainstream product, which is what this will be in a few years' time. And sort of I always go back to my grandma. Like, would I, Will my grandma be able to do this?

Speaker 2:

Does my grandmother's you know, will it be a good experience? And for some people, I wouldn't recommend it on that basis, as it stands right now. So we do need to get better at that and better sort of reasonably quickly as we're getting sort of normal people driving it, unlike, Yeah. Abnormal people like us.

Speaker 1:

I I do agree. The the yeah. These are the sort of people who ask me questions like this. You know? When you, when you drive EVs for a while, you kinda get and you're capable of dealing with little problems.

Speaker 1:

You kinda miss you miss the, The questions that the mainstream public might have. Right? Not everybody's as, as clever with, with, with the apps and stuff, as as as as some of us. I I think you covered this already, but the the last point that I have on my on my list is, you know, Is this the law or a draft? And, you know, I mean, you said that at the beginning that it's very unlikely that this will not go into the effect.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Massive massively, massively unlikely. So this is this all comes from the vehicle and automated vehicles bill. And this That's sort of if you think of a legislation, that's the that's the primary legislation that this hangs off of. And this is Sort of this is the secondary legislation which allows ministers to say in a primary bit of work, we plan to do this.

Speaker 2:

And on that point, it was about making it easier for certain things. And then if you consult on it, they consult on it, they consult on it, then this comes out. So it is a reasonably smooth process. And there are thousands of SIs every year, and they all go through. Okay?

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, it's it's definitely it's now definitely a thing barring a disaster, which I just can't see happening in the next 20 days.

Speaker 1:

So lastly, I mean, the the main reason I got you on is what what is the role of e a EVA England in this? And, you know, plug yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Bragmire. It's this has been a campaign that we've been working on for a couple years, and it came out of a survey that we did of our members and sort of that helped guide our campaigning work on this and policy asks that we had. We are planning to do a new survey. It may in fact already be out by the time this podcast, comes out.

Speaker 2:

So We, yeah, took the steer from the members, and that had such an impact, I think, on OSEF because they could sort of say to ministers, And this does a good look at sort of industry and people arguing against it. Look. It's very clear. This is what EV drivers want, and that was very impactful. So having that opportunity and having an organization like us, coming there and sort of saying that and sort of Making that voice heard, I think, has been crucial, and I hope has sort of emboldened the civil servants and ministers to do this legislation, because it would have been very easy not to.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, sort of very, It's been it's a good it was a good day. It's a good piece of work, and we're very happy to do it, and I think it's gonna have a real impact. And, again, now for us, as I said, we're gonna be putting out a new next survey trying to see what EV drivers are wanting, And that will form a large part of what we're campaigning for for the next year.

Speaker 1:

I think it's gonna be happening more quickly now, do you think? Or, because obviously, you know, anything anything going through the parliament and and legislative bodies in any country. It it's not just the UK. It takes time. Right?

Speaker 1:

Is there anything coming up that you can talk about? Or,

Speaker 2:

There's not really. There's MOTs and there's things there's sort of MOT consultation coming up. The big one is obviously the zed mandate, Which is the reason why we are seeing sort of the pushback we have. And I was Quietly amazed at just how bad the industry were at lobbying against this for the last 18 months. And the frustrating thing about all the changes and chops that happened last year, with Boris Johnson and this trust is that we should have had this set mandate already last year.

Speaker 2:

And the fact that it's been delayed has led to this just brutal pile on, And it is a coordinated and paid for pile on. And sort of, yeah, almost hats off to them actually having been so terrible for 18 months. The the dark side got their got their, got their act together. And I think there are some wobbles about the zed mandate, which will be hugely hugely disappointing if there's any slippage on it at all. The message that sends to investors, the message that just sends to anyone is terrible because I think that ultimately we're looking at this.

Speaker 2:

There are 20 to 30% of cars that are gonna be electric by 2030 if this passes. And if you're telling me that this country can't install 30,000 charging points, 30,000 plugs, That we need to delay this because we're that pathetic a country that in 7 years, we can't overcome this massive challenge of putting 30,000 3300,000 plugs into the country? Then Jesus, what the hell? We've got much bigger challenges than that. So So I think it's it's it's as you call them snowflakes.

Speaker 2:

Like, I can't imagine what these people would have been like during their own sort of yeah. These guys love the 2nd World War. Correct. Imagine if we had their spirits during the 2nd World War. I think we'd have given up and rolled over.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Let's a bit of perspective on what this challenge is and how easy it should be for it to be achieved.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's it. I I I I I noticed that the, they always pipe up close to the deadline. So the closer we're getting to 2030, The more we're gonna hear from them because they again, they just they rely on on the on the public not hearing anything. And at at the last minute, they just, you know, stir up the, the anti crowd with pathetic, incentives and pathetic Arguments. Usually, it's

Speaker 2:

They were really scraping the bat. I think they they're they really wanted to have a week's a week's worth. This is a telly now. They really want to have a week's worth of of headlines about it, and they really did start scraping the barrel about, oh god. Everybody's got to have 18 or 20 charging apps.

Speaker 2:

Well, firstly, you don't have to. And secondly, have you seen how many apps you need to access the news right now? Like, This is social media. You got, like, 6 or 7 apps. I think once you've got once your head headline is, oh god, you've got to have some apps on your phone.

Speaker 2:

It's like, I think you're you're Have

Speaker 1:

you yeah. People have

Speaker 2:

people have week. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

People people have loads of apps on their phones already. Like, that's not a that's not a good argument, is it?

Speaker 2:

It's not front it's not hold the front page news.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

Hey, guys. Some people have to have 18 apps. Right? We're clearing the front page. Nothing else matters.

Speaker 1:

And, obviously, this legislation, you know, mandates the the contact list that kinda blows away all all those arguments straight off Yeah. Of the.

Speaker 2:

So a lot of this work is made possible because we've got members who pay. And I think if you're an EV driver, we would love you to be a member. We don't have corporate partners. We're not PayPal by the the charge point operators or by manufacturers. Our funding has to come from, members, and I hope that the success we've had on this can show what an effective Drivers association voice.

Speaker 2:

Drivers association do giving your voice to government. So, yeah, if you can afford, to to join us, I think, it would be great To have your support, because we really do rely on it.

Speaker 1:

I I mean, I I am a member, and most people that I know are members of EVA England. Of course, if you don't live in England, then, you know, that's a different matter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, a bit yeah. Then you should also there is there is soon to be, there are some, people in Wales who are doing fantastic work trying to set this organization up. So there'll be any Welsh listeners. Once the Welsh, or the Cunri, EVA is launched.

Speaker 2:

EVA Scotland's been around a lot longer than us, but, you know, yeah, if you're listening in Scotland, join your EVA. If you're listening in Norway, Australia, Austria, France. You all have EVAs, and you should all join your national EVA too.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Thank you for your time, James.

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