Conversation with Quentin Willson
Hi. I'm Greg. This is Take Your TV podcast. Welcome to the episode 38. Take Your TV is a podcast about electric cars and sustainability and sustainable lifestyle.
Speaker 1:In today's discussion, we're gonna have a conversation with Quentin Wilson, who's a motoring journalist here in Britain. I don't wanna delay this anymore, but I would like to hear a thank from all my patrons who support this endeavor. And if you enjoy this conversation, please don't forget to subscribe, hit the notification bell, do all that stuff. And also, check out the stuff in the description. We've got merch and some other cool things.
Speaker 1:And, lastly, if you can, if you're on Twitter, follow me at take it e v where all the core conversation happens in between the episodes. Now on with the show. Well, welcome to TechEdV podcast. I'm sure, you know, people know you, but can you just for people overseas, can you just reminds people who you are and why, why we're talking.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm, Quetta Wilson, a motoring journalist and broadcaster who's been campaigning for electric cars for probably 12, 13 years and was driving them back in the day in 2009, 2010, when they were completely miserable, little things.
Speaker 1:Okay. And you've obviously yeah. Like you said, you've been involved in, motoring journalism for for a very long time. You you mentioned that you you've been involved in the EVs, you know I think the earliest I've seen you was it was was it an, Mitsubishi IMEI, or similar. I think I've seen a YouTube video where you're, you're reviewing it.
Speaker 1:What what can you talk about, like because obviously you've you've been involved in in, in motoring journalism way before before the the sort of the early EVs, you know, on this side of 2000s, can you, tell us, like, what attracted you to EVs? Like, what you know, there's a there's a lot of people who are car people, but they've kind of been resisting it for a very long time and you've been kind of an early adopter.
Speaker 2:So yeah. The the the moment, and I can clearly, clearly remember it, Greg, was, driving down Sunset Boulevard in LA filming for Top Gear. I presented that program for 15 years next to Clarkson, and it was in GM's fabled EV one. And I was one of the 1st UK journalists, if not the 1st UK journalist to drive it, and GM lent it to us and and, I was a little bit skeptical like everybody else. But it was a moment where I just thought, my goodness, this is fast, this is quiet, this is futuristic, this is this is pretty, and it had everything.
Speaker 2:And and and the whole crew were bowled over by it as well. And then we drew up or I drove to the traffic lights, having lost the the filming car, in the traffic. And there was a guy in a Volvo T5, next to me. And he looked over me. It was smoke with his Oakley sunglasses and and just kind of scorned.
Speaker 2:And then the lights changed and I I I nailed it and it just flew. And I'd never sort of seen that or felt that sort of Crazy acceleration, before. And, of course, he was just toast. And I I thought, well, this is it. This is the future.
Speaker 2:And I I recorded a piece of the camera, not long after that, saying, you know, one day we'll be driving cars like this. And and and here we are, in, you know, 20 years later. Think that was 97, 98. And it it's all come true. The fact that GM crushed all those EV ones, Which is now a a matter of history.
Speaker 2:And and and, you know, they didn't wanna sell them to people or lease them or continue the leases that people had on them, and they literally took them all away. If you if you ever wanna watch the, Who Killed the Electric Car, it's a really fascinating film and and tells this story. And it shows you that back then, GM knew that what they'd created accidentally was better than the cars they were making or would make for the next 20 years, so they wanted them gone. So it's a really, really kind of symbolic Piece of cinema that you look there and you think, wow. And and then the hydrogen industry got involved and they persuaded the California Air Resources Board to to go with hydrogen rather than electrification.
Speaker 2:And and the rest is history. So that was my my damascene moment, Greg.
Speaker 1:What what why do you think yeah. I I I I had one of the episodes in the past where I I talked about as a as a teenager or or young man. I was watching, I think there was a program called beyond 2000 which is an Australian program and they were reviewing all sorts of future technologies. I don't know what would what would be equivalent in the UK, but the, one of the things that they were saying, you know, in in early 19 nineties is that hydrogen is gonna be the future we're all gonna be driving cars that just produce water so it was as a sort of byproduct of of driving and I yeah, I do I do wonder what, you know, why companies like GM would be afraid of of, of EVs, you know, to us, nowadays, it sounds a bit silly that they did did that, but what was what was your feeling at the time? Why did they do it?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a disruptive technology. And if you're a large car car manufacturer with a global footprint and you've got all these factories making engines and this tie in this completely hydrocarbon dominated business plan, which will stretch, you know, for 20 years into the future. To send suddenly to have your engineers telling you, woah, this is a great car. We need to completely change direction and we need to make these and and, you know, we'll be the market leader. The old old guard in in GM would would not have liked that.
Speaker 2:And in a culture in America where obviously the the internal combustion engine and and cheap gasoline then, with with such a driver, it would have been, you know, when you think about it, would be completely disruptive for for GM, in all its markets. So I guess, you know, if we're practical businessmen, that would have been a a a step too far, but, they were just ahead of the game, absolutely massively ahead of the game. And I think probably even if they produced it, it would have been really difficult for them, but they should have pioneered it and carried on and and and and, you know, been on that hill, that that that moral high ground that said that, you know, we're a a combustion car manufacturer, but we're also looking at alternative technologies. And here's one we've we've we've made that that that has worked. And instead of having all those those wonderful kind of plaudits and and and and laurel leaves, they have been kind of vilified as as the the company that killed the electric car.
Speaker 2:And it's so sad because all it cost them a 1,000,000,000 quid, Greg, that car. You know, really huge, huge amount of of money. Back then, it was Titanic, and they just swept it away because of a a board of directors who were just old school. And and you still see that now. I mean, there are lots of carmakers out there.
Speaker 2:Let's let's let's make no mistake about it, who really don't want electrification, And they're doing it simply because of the government targets. But if you talk to them candidly, they wanna carry on building diesels. You know, they've got all these factories and all this investment in its technology. They know where they don't know about batteries and battery packs and range and BMS and And and and cooling and and thermal runaway. They're only just learning that now.
Speaker 2:So they're finding this really, really tricky. And making margins on electric cars isn't as easy because obviously with with cabushing cars, they know how the business works and they know they can make sometimes 20, 30% on an SUV. So, you know, they're making all the encouraging noises, but there are certainly people in in in boards of of big blue chip car companies who have said to me, no, this isn't the future. In fact, 1 1 guy who I shall not mention, I'll spare his blushes, and it's a UK car manufacturer, he said to me on many, many occasions, look, nobody wants electric cars. They really, really don't.
Speaker 2:Who wants an electric Range Well, you know, lots of people actually,
Speaker 1:looking for
Speaker 2:Tesla Model Y.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And ID fours and all these other big SUVs that are electric, you know, Audi,
Speaker 2:E tron. What? Yeah.
Speaker 1:E tron and, you know, I I was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just yeah. That's people just won them.
Speaker 1:Like, the I think model y actually sold better and sells better now than model 3 Yeah. Because it's bigger.
Speaker 2:So I've ordered one because it's so great, and you put it next to a Range Rover and you think, actually, you know, this is better because it's got more space inside and it's faster and quieter, and it'll cost you so much less, and it won't depreciate. And and I think the takeaway from all this, Greg, is that consumers who all the carmakers thought didn't want this technology, we know they they now do. The vast majority of of of people, if they could afford it, would give up their combustion car and have an electric car.
Speaker 1:Indeed. And
Speaker 2:and and that's good. And it's happened with such Speed and pace over the last 3 or 4 years while people like you and me have been talking about this, we've seen such an exponential rise in sales of electric cars that it's only being kind of halted by availability. You know, Elon Musk has says he may have to stop taking orders because he he can't he can't fulfill the the the demand.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's true. So, given all this, you know, the the this is one of the challenges that we have. But what what do you think are the sort of other challenges in the, the fast sort of be bev transition? And and, you know, obviously people want them, but do you think there's any other, reasons why we struggling to to to make this transition?
Speaker 1:Obviously, if if companies like GM have, you know, kept on producing cars like EV 1, we would have been way ahead of the curve already. Like, we would have been, you know, this would this this whole discussion wouldn't probably happened. We have already been driving, Bev's, you know, 10 years ago. But what do you think is the is still a major challenge now?
Speaker 2:It's infrastructure really and costs. Those are the 2 the 2 barriers. We've we've replaced range anxiety with charging anxiety, and we all want to know where that charger is. And when we get there, will it work? And and then there's the cost of of EVs.
Speaker 2:I mean, they are more expensive in terms of upfront costs. We now know that over, say, 4 years, they're significantly less than combustion cars to own because of the low depreciation and the lack of maintenance and And and and the cost of electricity. So the the problem for me and I'm, some of your your listeners should know that, I founded a campaign called Fair Charge, which is to increase the understanding of of EVs and to keep charging costs down and to hold the government's feet the fire to make sure they they produce a a decent infrastructure. But the the big problem for me is that we now have a situation, and I'm sure this is the same in other countries, where the electric car is effectively a middle class thing because middle class people could afford a $50 Tesla, and and a a a 35 grand, 40 grand leaf. But the the 15,000 pound or the the 20,000 pound electric car is a way off.
Speaker 2:And I'm I'm I'm not including all those little cars you buy in China because I don't think they would pass the the crash tests here. And I don't think we need to have lots of of of of cheap electric cars from China. We need to build our own. So the problem here is that you you you you you've got the haves and the have nots. And I think that's a real problem.
Speaker 2:And I wanna make sure that, you know, zero emission motoring is something that everybody can have. So we need to to pressure the government to to to look it into this and they won't be able to build electric cars and neither will the carmakers, but what we should look at is maybe there is some sort of loan interest free loan systems they have in in Scotland where you can you can be helped to buy an electric car. And and and with the rising residual prices of them, this isn't an asset that depreciates so you could probably use that that that that profit on the asset over time to subsidize some sort of loan thing, but this is really, really important. Otherwise, we'll have a class division when it comes to electric cars and that helps nobody. So we've got to do that.
Speaker 2:I'm also campaigning in in in the UK, we have this ridiculous situation where if you charge your car on a public charge, you have to pay 20% VAT compared to 5% if you're charging at home. Now this is a, an old, piece of tax legislation that was around when electric cars were just a twinkle in Elon Musk's eyes so this needs changing, but getting the treasury in the UK to change is like pushing the Albert Memorial. You know, it takes a long time, but we're on it. And we've got the the treasury mandarin scratching their their chins and saying, really? Okay.
Speaker 2:But, and I mean, it's a battle I will win. But but things like that, they they disincentivize people for making the shift to to electric cars. So, you know, certainly in the UK, we've got wide adoption. You drive down any motorway and and there are just so so many cars. And and I used to count testers on the way to school with my kids and, you know, we'd we'd get into double figures.
Speaker 2:Now you couldn't do that because you'd you'd you'd be looking at so many cars you'd crash. So that that adoption has been really incredibly, incredibly high and, it's what nearly 20% of the market now, but it's it's still only 1.2, 1.3% of the total global market in the UK. So we've still got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I I sometimes say to people that, the reason you see so many model three's is because people want them. They can lease them very cheaply and when they order it today, they can get it in 3 months whereas if you go to any car, any car other car manufacturer, you can await 12 plus months. I every time I said I I I I currently drive a Kia in Niro. Every time I go to the garage to do anything, and I listen to the salesman, the first thing that they say to people, there's people going through the doors and and asking first thing they say, they want an electric car.
Speaker 1:And he says, but, you know, we can't deliver it in 12 months, But you can have this brilliant hybrid. And I wonder if if car manufacturers, made a mistake, deliberate or not, And didn't prepare themselves for the old demand. And Tesla is just eating their breakfast now, or their lunch, you know. I think it's breakfast because it's early. Pardon me.
Speaker 1:The, the, not the pun, the creative phrase there. But the, but, I'm I'm glad that somebody like yourself, you know, with a lot of experience basically in the industry pushes this because, I I I I wish there was more, you know, journalists, motoring journalists actually being as proactive as yourself. But, do you think this is the, so you've you've been reporting on cars, you know, as your main job in life for a very long time. But is has there been anything bugging you, as a thing that, you know, isn't done by other people who should have been working towards this goal as part of their life, as a sort of the journalist life, you know, you mentioned the, the the Fairchild UK. But is there anything else, you know, the journalists could do now.
Speaker 1:You know, we see a lot of what I'm trying to allude to is there's a lot of negativity in price because obviously it sell it sells. Do you think they're doing as a favor or is that or is it a are those criticisms fair or is it just, you know, uh-uh is it hindering the the adoption?
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of negativity, and more so than there was when I was driving around in my little little Imeav and Sitch and C 0 and and And Zoe and Leif, they kind of smiled indulgently and and said, well, he's a bit mad, isn't he? And and I would get invited on radio shows and things ostensibly to talk about electric cars, and then then you find out you were there just so they could take the Mechey out of you. And and and this this man from Top Gear who who loved all these fast cars has suddenly become a tree hugger and eating muesli for breakfast and wearing apron toed sandals. So I was the kind of, You know, the butt of ridicule for for for quite a while. And I think the question is a good one that there is a lot that that that that the general press could do.
Speaker 2:And particularly The Motoring Press, although they have raised their game quite recently. But it's clickbait, isn't it, Greg, in a sense that it's much better to write a story that says that we're gonna run out of lithium and cobalt and nobody's gonna be able to build batteries and things like that, then to say, You know you know, electric cars are great, near the future, and we should all buy one. That kind of apocalyptic narrative in in in in a lot of presses it's what what sells, you know, ads and newspapers and and and and news sites. So it's a great shame. I think there's also another problem is that not enough people in the motoring press and the general media have driven an electric car or owned an electric car.
Speaker 2:Once you you have that damascene moment and you'll remember it from the 1st time you drove an electric car, you just think this is it. There is no turning back. I will never buy another combustion car again, unless it's maybe a classic or something. And I think there are lots of people who like to think they're commentators but have not done as I've done, which is probably 70 to a 100000 miles in a battery only car. That's a lot of charging.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of hanging around. That's a lot of working out your range and stuff like that. But once you've done it, you have a set of experiences that entitles you to be able to talk really knowledgeably on the subject. And unless you've done that, you fall into all the the the the the traps of, you know, this is no good and the batteries don't last and you can't use them in the rain and, you know, all the batteries are gonna go into landfill and they catch fire. And this long litany of absolute moonshine that is being propagated by people who just don't want change and, you know, you take the diesel out of their cold dead hands.
Speaker 2:And I think, you know, we could all, as as journalists and opinion formers, do more to get rid of all these, these, these urban myths and misconceptions and and downright crap, really.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, you know, speaking of top gear, like, people should do something exciting like that, but about fast or or fun when it comes to driving electric cars, I think that will sell better than negativity that, people are kinda chasing. And I'm personally kinda annoyed with the, the young, you know, creators on YouTube and whatnot, these days, they they test drive a car for 15 minutes and then they present it as if they owned it for a while. And it's and it's it's just predictable and kind of boring or they go to the other extreme where they complain about electric cars and I wish there was those, you know, the good old, journalism done when it comes to electric cars. That's my personal view, obviously.
Speaker 1:But I was just wondering whether you agree with that.
Speaker 2:I think it's interesting because you would think that there would be an electric car show, and and, you know, Tomorrow's Cars or Cars of the Future or something like that and I pitched this to loads of broadcasters. And the problem is a lot of them just don't drive at all And they're interested in dating shows and antiques and gardening and sort of The usual, you know, predictable televisual fare. And nobody really wants to do, an electric car Joe, when you would have thought that this would be really, really fascinating to a large, you know, congregation of people. Yeah. But that's television and television has always been like that.
Speaker 2:It It's always a bit behind the curve. But I think the fact that that that program doesn't exist is is is really symbolic of of the fact that the media isn't interested, and it should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I I I mean, we we have obviously the fully charged show, which that's the way to go these days. It seems like, yeah, you have to create your own show and produce it yourself, should obviously Yeah. I mean
Speaker 2:fully charged should be on broadcast, terrestrial satellite television. The fact that it has to be on YouTube, with such meteoric success and a 1000000 a 1000000 followers, it's kind of testament to what's wrong. You would have thought someone would have snapped Robert up and said, right, let's give you give you a proper show, but they haven't. And I think that's that's really, really telling. So we could, as a society, Really start to understand it.
Speaker 2:Look. It's, it's not about you should drive an electric car because it's it's it's a good thing to do. The benefits of electric cars and and the the following electrification are just huge in the in the sense that air quality in towns, energy security, lower energy costs. You drive more gently, more more kind of you know, in in a considered way to save energy. But those batteries in those electric cars will then spawn other batteries that will power ships and light aviation and and static energy storage.
Speaker 2:And that means that we can transition from a hydrocarbon Economy and hydrocarbon polluting fossil fuel world to this world of of renewable energy. So the electric car is the first step in that journey, Greg, and it's so important. And I I campaign a lot in in parliament and I talk to MPs and things and you tell them this and they kind of, Oh, really? You know? And I think we we really, really should be looking at this as a a historic generational change where we can stop burning stuff and stop polluting the atmosphere and global warming and air quality and really start to generate clean, cheap, renewable power.
Speaker 2:I mean, renewables are the cheapest energy on Earth. Why aren't we doing more of this? Why is, I won't mention his name. You know, a certain gardening presenter saying, you know, I don't want, you know, onshore wind farms. They're ugly and they're horrible.
Speaker 2:It's not about that. It's about energy security and making sure that what's happened over the last 5 months and and and Ukraine and and and Putin and oil and gas never happens again. That's the thing. So that's why electric cars are just so important. It's not a a badge of rank and little green number plates carve you out as somebody who's got a social conscience.
Speaker 2:It's about making sure we we are no longer dependent on so much oil and gas.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I fully agree. I, I I was kind of jokingly saying around the, sort of, the Brexit votes, that one of the biggest independence is that we should be backing if any, is is the energy independence and obviously, you know, people who are supporting that whole movement were, that they are very, very big, supporters of oil and gas and all that stuff. But, you know, it's to me, that's ironic that when we talk about independence, we we never talk about the, the energy dependency on Russia and China and, you know, other, a big monolithic countries that, you know, COVID kinda showed us that the, that those dependencies are not good. And then obviously, the the Russia's invasion of Ukraine kinda, just put a tick underneath that, and now we're kinda scrambling to to to get away from that.
Speaker 1:I fully agree. The, one one of the that's a that is sort of the other positive thing that I that I've seen as part of the, the the, you know, the early adopters are now I think we're we're no longer in the early adoption phase, but there's a resurgence of of of kind of, car clubs where people meet up, you know, just to talk about EVs. And obviously, you go to to a lot of, you know, you go to conferences, not conferences, the what you would call like the fully charged show and and the, was the other one in, in, Jaguar, fuck no. It's not a factory. I can't remember what it's called.
Speaker 1:It's a it's in Gaiden. The name kinda escaped me. But the, do you see that yourself that there's there's more interest in, like, me people meeting up and just discussing electric cars in person on local basis. Do you ever go to any any meetups where you are? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's there's a great big EV community now. Yeah. And they all they all join up and there's Tesla Owners Clubs and Leaf Owners Clubs. And there's 1, the one you're talking about in, Engadin is is an annual, EV show in the car park at the British Motor Museum and it's fantastic. And you've got all this eclectic bunch of people who aren't there to for bragging rights.
Speaker 2:They're just there to talk about their EVs and and about the range and about the battery life and all this sort of stuff. And And it's it's it's it's not just Teslas. It's everything. And I was there, I think, the year before last, and there was a man with a Renault Fluence. I mean Yes.
Speaker 2:When have you ever seen a Renault Fluence, Greg?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think it's it's called EV Festival. That's the name. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Something like that.
Speaker 2:For your for your listeners, the Fluence was a car made by Renault with a replaceable battery, wasn't it? And you Yes. You take the battery out and put another one in. It didn't catch on, but the very fact that this guy was there proudly showing off this piece of, you know, EV motoring history was was just great. I was I was I was gobsmacked by it.
Speaker 2:So, yes, there is there is this this growing community and if you look on on the forums and on on YouTube, it it's huge. What what we we we've got to be very careful is that that doesn't become a fringe thing. And there are lots of ordinary car drivers who go from their fiestas and and Astra's and and courses and and and and buy, You know, electric cars and and enjoy them and have the same levels of passion and enthusiasm. It's getting them to drive them. That's the big big thing because once you've driven 1 and and I would say 90% of the population has yet to do that.
Speaker 2:You get it. No amount of sales pitch, no amount of passionate evangelism from people like you and me does the same as getting your backside in the car and just feeling that you're in a a brave new world of of modern technology And that you're not gonna turn back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I agree. There's so many people that I know who are very, very stubborn petrol heads who refuse to to even drive a passengers with me in a car because they know once they kinda feel it, you know, they they they they they they wanna create that that firewall between the, their own their own world and the the the new reality. But So the, you know, the world is or the the world's history is full of, great, inventions that people didn't end up adopting because one way or the other politics or, you know, or, Interested interests. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Kind of one. And I I'm still, you know, I've I've I'm forty for almost. And I've I've I've I've grew and I'm an engineer sort of by trade. So, the cynicism in me is kinda, you know, in, like, I've just it's an it's part of my experience in life and in, you know, in work life. And I'm still worried that there's gonna be a chance that politicians or or the industry is gonna kinda screw it up for the lack of better term.
Speaker 1:Are you worried that this is gonna happen? Like, you know, that people will adopt something like hydrogen or anything else just to kinda slow it down or to stay and have their own, you know, and, fossil burning toys. Are you are you worried about that happening or or you do you think we will succeed in the distance?
Speaker 2:I think we've passed that point now, whereas, you know, there are still people out there who are hanging on to the the hydrogen dream, but as an engineer, you'll know that the cost of hydrogen is so so much, the the c o two it produces is so much if you talk about green hydrogen. And carbon capture. I mean, I don't think that's been proved at all. And the energy required to make hydrogen compared to electricity, what is it, 4 times?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So for passenger cars, it just it doesn't begin. I mean, I I drove the Honda Clarity, and and the the Ford did a a hydrogen Focus. And look, they were lovely and they filled up really, really, really quickly. But the cost, I mean, the Toyota Mirai, is that 80,000?
Speaker 1:I think it's 16, I think. Yeah. But
Speaker 2:still What it's a huge amount of money. And
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The fact that there isn't a major motor manufacturer now that's actually pursuing a a a a credible hydrogen policy is, I think, indicative of the fact that they've all Got this and said, look, this isn't this isn't the technology. It might be for heavy goods vehicles or marine or stuff like that, but not not not for passenger cars. The my real anxiety is is that politicians will roll back these green targets which were set broadly by Boris Johnson. Now he's he's a troubled a troubled prime minister, and he may not last the course. And there is this Brexit scrutiny group, a backbench, right wing MPs who who don't believe in climate change and who don't believe that we should be doing this and this cost to society of of of all these green policies is is is a price not worth paying.
Speaker 2:So they will, at the first opportunity, Try and unpick all this legislation. Now if you take away that 2030, moratorium on sales of of new cars and vans and the 2035 on hybrids, then the manufacturer has no reason to to to to stop building combustion cars, and they can carry on and they can stretch it to 2040, 2050, 2060. And, and we're knackered, you know, in that great beatific vision of this world without pollution and without without diesels rattling away, checking out particulates, that could carry on indefinitely and that's my biggest fear. So when I'm I'm in the House of Commons talking to MPs, with my Fair Charge hat on, you know, it's it's really important and we've got about, I think, 35 cross party MPs and and people in the House of Lords who are supporting us. We need to get more to be able to say if ever it comes to that vote in the house, we can say no, we're not going to let that one through because what we talk about is our health and the health of our children and the health of their children.
Speaker 2:And it is, as I keep saying, this generational opportunity for energy transition away from polluting fossil fuels.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I agree. And and also I think it would be worth mentioning too if you speak to MPs about what happened in Australia just recently with their votes. You know? It it's not a pub nobody puts it that way in the, in a public media, but people that I listen to who who are, who are, you know, there in in Australia have kind of clearly stated that the, one of the sort of the back bench winners or or not.
Speaker 1:I don't know what is what would be the the the poetic way to put it, but the, the people kind of, put their money on on the climate change and the fact that the, the leaders there we're very much against, you know, or we're trying to stifle the the progress, and and backing coal and all that nasty stuff in there. And and they lost massively, so, I think, you know, we need this wave to kinda carry on and and, come over to the UK. And speaking of the, like, as an engineer, I always remind people that the hydrogen cars are still electric cars with a tiny, range range extending hydrogen fuel cell thingy. Yeah. And so we still need a battery and we still need a need an electric car.
Speaker 1:You know how big you're gonna make the fuel cell and the hydrogen tank can vary and I agree with you like the the physics So there's no about hydrogen like the, hydro hydrogen production is very expensive, for a reason. You know, it's just the physical property of it, and we can't change physics. That's just the law of nature. So I don't know why people are still thinking that they can somehow make by putting money into that industry, they can make a progress there because I don't think it's possible physically. Somebody would have won a Nobel prize if they if they were able to figure something out.
Speaker 2:But we we should try. I mean, look, I'm a great believer in in in in parallel technologies. And if there is, you know, a a hydrogen fuel cell that is small and that that that that can produce, you know, effectively green hydrogen that can power things, then let's keep going, you know. Don't don't shut shut shut the the door on that one. I mean, we might have said that about batteries, you know, 10, 15 years ago that they were too expensive, they didn't have enough power and they didn't have enough range, which was broadly true.
Speaker 2:And it's only because people have been throwing 1,000,000,000 of Of of of dollars and pounds that that we've got the the the the 2170 battery that is, you know, the staple of all electric the cars pioneered by Tesla and the 46/80 now which is also a, you know, a fantastic battery with with with greater range and better cooling. So you know, these have come out from research and development and investment. Now that might happen with hydrogen, so we shouldn't close the door.
Speaker 1:Oh, I I agree. I agree. Like, the we we need, you know, hydrogen obviously wins when it comes to the, the energy density. That's still a problem that, again, physics, you know, is just one of those things where you as an engineer, when you look at it, you need to have the only way you can either store the energy or or or transmit it. Speaking of of but I I I just have a feeling that, you know, the going back to the previous question that I had about other people kind of stifling the progress because of whatever reasons, you know, I was I was gobsmacked basically when I was younger that nobody, came up with a parallel hybrid essentially, or serial hybrid sorry, much earlier and didn't push for it.
Speaker 1:You know, again, having if you imagine a hydrogen car, but instead of the the fuel cell, you just have a small, electric a a petrol motor that just drives a generator at certain RPMs. And then, you know, was it the, is it the, the Volt, which is the Vauxhall Ampere in the UK? Yeah. That that in my opinion should have happened 10, 20 years ago, and all cars should be like that now. That would have been a a sort of, you know, a a logical thing to do.
Speaker 1:But again, industry somehow has been resisting this, and we we now have the self charging hybrids and all that sort of, nonsense, which is essentially that. But in my opinion, about 20 years too late. And I'm still still worried that this, you know, somebody will try to tweak it and and make it, make the adoption, not happened in time and, you know, by 2030.
Speaker 2:I had a Vauxhall Ampere. It was great.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I ran it for a year. Was was fantastic. He used to get a 195 miles to the gallon. And, you know, it was it was really, really, really a clever, clever car. And there's another instance of GM sort of because they just killed it off.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you just think why? Because it it worked so well. But again, it it it it was a car that they really didn't want to sell it. It's what what we call now compliance cars.
Speaker 2:Cars that were made Because it got their c o two down and it it it got them credits and the EU, were were were were happier if they did that, but they didn't really wanna make these cars. The irony is that when they did make them, they made them really well. And here's another thing, that all those gen gen 1 electric cars, so going right back to the little IMEI ebbs and even the gee whizzes and and and and the 24 kilowatt leaves, those batteries have lasted. They really, really have. And the you talked about it in the battery recycling industry and that that they they say, well, you know, when the batteries come, we'll recycle them.
Speaker 2:And they're still waiting. And, you know, you're finding now that the lithium ion battery pack, certainly in in lots of Teslas, isn't is outlasting the chassis of the car. And and that's a really interesting thing that they over engineered these batteries in in the early days to make sure we didn't have failure rates and we didn't have thermal runaway. And and what's happened is that if if, you know, somebody says says to me, what about all these batteries that are gonna go to landfill? And you you look at them and you say, are you nuts?
Speaker 2:You know, look on on on Ebay and the price of a a 24 kilowatt battery from a crashed leaf is is probably $5. And then if you want a a secondhand battery pack for a Tesla Model 3, it's $10 because these things still work and they can be put into other applications and And and stuff like that. So that's really interesting that, you know, everybody predicted that you would need a new battery every 3 or 4 years. So it was even the even the industry guides, glasses guides and and caps. I remember reading them and and and this new wave of electric cars, they shook their heads glumly and they said, well, they're gonna depreciate like like Steinway's thrown from tower blocks because, of the batteries.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, you were wrong, and you were seriously wrong because here we are 10 years later, and these cars are still happily running around. All people want is more range and and Robert Llewellyn's got this 24 kilowatt LEAF and he's put a new, a new battery pack in it and and gets, you know, 150, 175. So look, you know, it's another piece of misinformation and urban nonsense that just, You know, it has been robustly disproved.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. You're you're you're quite right. Like, I would love to be able to if if people were throwing away, quote unquote, the batteries from 24 30 kilowatt hour lease, after 2, 3 years, I would gladly buy 1 and put it on the wall behind my house to have the storage. Like, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Completely. Never gonna happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're gonna get energy storage produced from second life batteries. Yeah. But but And
Speaker 1:and But if indeed there was so many of them were thrown out, you could just, like you say, go on Ebay and buy 1 for a couple grand and it would be easy. It isn't, you know, it's just it's just not, because there's so much demand and the the prices obviously go up. When it comes to the, the fire charge, that you mentioned before, is that something that other people can kinda help you with or is you know, I'm just trying to see if there's any anything we can do, like, you know, the community at large, basically. Or is that something Look.
Speaker 2:Anybody who is interested in in in electric cars and electrification and and cleaning our air, sign up to Fair Charge. So our website is www.faircharge.co.uk. And we're on Twitter at Faircharge UK. And just join us. We we we've got a supporters page.
Speaker 2:We can tell you how to write your MP, and trust me because I did a petrol campaign for 11 years Fair Fuel, Which saved a 120,000,000,000, on VAT and and fuel duty rises. So we can have a really, really, really great effect. The more letters that go to the m MPs, the more they realize that, you know, they should be thinking about electrification. And if their constituents want more charges. They want cheaper rates.
Speaker 2:They want more transparency and visibility, then they'll they'll listen. So it's faircharge.co.uk and at Fair Charge UK on Twitter.
Speaker 1:And and of course the other because I that's the one one of the when I mentioned the, that campaign to somebody recently, they asked me if it has anything to do with the fuel campaign. Obviously, it doesn't. You know, it's good to keep this business really
Speaker 2:good for your your listeners to understand what what what happened. So I I did that for, 11 years. So we started in was it 2010, campaigning for for for a moratorium on fuel duty because Alastair Darling, the then chancellor of the Exchequer, wanted to have fuel duty fixed to, the cost of living. So every budget it would go up by a certain percentage. And I said at the time, and this was David Cameron was prime minister, this is gonna really decimate working class families and and people who have to use cars.
Speaker 2:And he luckily, you know, he agreed with me and and he chopped a penny off, fuel duty and said we are the party that that that reduces fuel duty. And every budget, we would we would bombard treasury and and and And MPs with with emails saying, look, don't put up up duty in this this budget and it worked. But, all the time I was I was driving electric cars well as combustion cars because I thought, you know, look, if I'm if I'm the car man and the petrol man, I need to look at this new technology. And it worked. And I got to a stage when I bought a Tesla Model 3 a couple of years ago when I thought we we actually don't need to be promoting petrol and subsidizing petrol.
Speaker 2:So I I walked away from fair Fairfield after such a long time, Because it wasn't the right thing to do. You know, it it it it it you can't promote both. So, and I'm glad I did. And then I started up Fair Charge. So For everybody's, peace of mind, I no longer have anything to do with Fairfuel, which has become really quite Quite right wing and very anti EV and very anti climate change, and I want nothing more to do with it.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. And, obviously, they had that, you know, the way they kinda behave is a is a is a sign of them being desperate, basically, not having anything else to to To cling on to. And thank you for explaining it because because it it when I when I said that I'm gonna talk to you, that's one of the main sort of things that I've heard from people that they would like to, you know, hear more about and, you know
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, maybe I should do another interview about it because, it's very important that that that it it's clear that I I no longer want subsidies for fossil fuels. And it's about it's about this new technology which works. And that's the point that we can now drive If you could afford them, we can we can drive electric cars and get 320 miles to one charge.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And and obviously, no, you know, you've got experience in in talking to politicians about it, which is obviously very much appreciated. I'm happy that you're on sort of quote unquote on our side of things. You know, having somebody with experiences because It
Speaker 2:It was a very conscious decision that, I thought this is important. We have to do this because if I don't, there aren't really many other voices. There's just Robert. And and Robert and I collected our Mitsubishi IMEI vibes at exactly the same time in Birmingham back in 2010 and and went to our different ways, but we've kind of come come back together. And and he's done an awful lot of work and survived.
Speaker 2:And it's sad that, you know, we're we're we're probably the only 2 journalists in the UK over that decade who had the the the kind of clout and and the resolve to be able to promote this and and and and to to to to change people's opinions. I think that's that's also very telling.
Speaker 1:No. Yeah. Yeah. Going back to batteries, is the, is British vault something you're involved in as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah. British folk came to me and said, look, we're making a battery factory up in up in Blythe, and and we'd like you to to advise us on EVs, and and what the consumer wants when it comes to electric cars and and particularly batteries and range and cost and charging times and all that sort of thing. So I do consultancy work for them and and and advise them on on, you know, what is the best best kind of combination of of battery density And and and range and and how long people want want to charge to charge for and what's what's acceptable and what isn't. And they're really great because they allow me into the kind of inner world of battery tech. And I go to lots of labs and things and talk to, electrochemical engineers and things.
Speaker 2:And I was down at Imperial College in London the other day and then up at the Warwick Manufacturing Group at Warwick University. Seeing this new technology and how they really are developing these batteries at at a huge, huge speed and and literally the technology is changing day by day. And that's why they're building this factory up in in Northumberland in 4 stages. Because if you built it all at once, the technology would change so fast that the the the bit you built and then the machines you bought would be redundant. So they're doing that and and the idea is to and I think they're probably world leading at this stage because they really are, you know, pushing the boundaries and looking at silicon anodes and reducing cobalt an LFP and and all these alternative materials that aren't critical minerals that that that we can get easily and we're not gonna run out of, and and and learning how to manage heat, and manage cooling and and also make the battery part of the car in the sense that, you know, it it it it can be a a part of the chassis rather than being this this platform you just put at the bottom or or, worse still, being part of a a car that was actually designed for a combustion engine and you just put the batteries in as an afterthought.
Speaker 2:And then they're also working on recycling, how you make a battery much easier to recycle because at the moment we put batteries through shredders and it gets out all the critical minerals in the form of black mass. But it'd be much easier if if the battery just came to pieces to be recycled, you know, virtually instantly with a few turns of a screwdriver. And those are the things they're they're pioneering. And I think pioneering is the right word because, you know, the lithium ion battery has been around for quite a while. But broadly speaking, it hasn't really changed that much.
Speaker 2:And it's only recently that we've got people like Tesla going for the 4680, which is a a larger, fatter battery with with with with greater density, that you don't need so much of. I mean, there are 4,600 cylindrical batteries in a Tesla Model 3 in in the battery pack. This is a 21/70 battery. So I know all this stuff about batteries. And I've I've talked to all these electrochemists and things, because I've I've had access to that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's really important because people like me, car journalists, we know about engines and, you know, most people know about engines, but very few of us know about batteries. And that education is really, really important. And being allowed behind the magic curtain to talk to all these the scientists about batteries, I think is really, really good and it helps everybody understand. So part of my role in British role is also educating consumers about batteries and what to expect. And the fact that, you know, quite soon we will have solid state batteries, maybe 5, 7 years that have 7, 800 mile ranges and that will last a 1000000 miles.
Speaker 2:And that technology is close enough to touch. And I think that's that that that's really good. And it's different from being aligned to a car manufacturer because if you are aligned to 1 particular car manufacturer, it makes it quite difficult. You can't really be independent. But with batteries, it's different.
Speaker 2:And batteries are they're gonna be great for everybody. And if we can we can start designing batteries, big solid state, standalone static energy batteries that can power businesses, towns, cities. Then that's great. And that's exactly what Musk is doing. And he's done it in California and he's done it in Australia where, you know, he has these big big battery energy storage units which which stop all the power outages.
Speaker 2:And eventually, you'll be able to run that on renewable electricity, on solar, and it will, you know, be able to to to power whole whole towns and communities. So socially, I think that that that battery piece is really, really important, and I'm I'm I'm really privileged that they've allowed me to, as a journalist, to to to listen to all these chemists and And hear what they're doing.
Speaker 1:And and obviously that when you talk to politicians and other people that kind of gives you an insight from the other perspective. You you can't just say I've heard isn't that but you, you know, you have some backing, which is always great.
Speaker 2:And and to tell politicians that look, this is about highly paid, highly skilled jobs in a new industry that we can create, we can no longer carry on building combustion engines, wearing them out, and then building them back again. I mean, it it's kinda nuts. Yeah. And all that friction, all that oil, and all that smoke, and all that carbon, it's it's gotta go. So understanding that that the batteries the without energy batteries, there will be no energy transition.
Speaker 2:And you've got to get politicians to understand that supporting companies like like Britishvolt and there's gonna be another battery factory, hopefully, in Coventry, and and and Northvolt and things like that is is it it's very, very good for society at large. And you've got to take this long term view beyond an electoral cycle and say that this is for us and it's for our children and their children and the generation after that. And we'd if we don't do it, we will be unforgivably remiss having, you know, wasted so much opportunities in in the past with North Sea Oil and North Sea Gas, and we'd felt so comfortable about it. We really didn't develop this this independent energy strategy. Well, now is the time to do that.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I'm saying that as I as I mentioned early on that the the the, you know, the battery is is gonna be critically important to our our future and our our reindustrialization.
Speaker 1:Here here. I I, as a bonus question because I I we're running out of time shortly. The my father-in-law has contributed a question, for me. And he basically said, if you could buy an extra car for Jeremy Clarkson, which electric car would you buy for him?
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, look
Speaker 1:I know it's a it's a sort of tongue in cheek question, but, you know
Speaker 2:Not that he ever had one. I remember I would show him my Mitsubishi, and he would look at me and and say, you've been reading The Guardian, haven't you? You know, you've you've gone all soft and green on me and you know, with nothing but contempt. And then that contempt would would translate into the items they did on Top Gear where you remember they they tested the Tesla Roadster And ranked it around the track, and then then it it supposedly ran out of juice, and they had to push it into the into the hangar. And and that was that was nonsense.
Speaker 2:That was just for the cameras. So I would I would say to Clarkson, get a model model s Plaid, Tesla Model S Plaid, which does naught 60 in 1.9 seconds. And then tell me that electric cars aren't exciting, that electric cars are for tree huggers and electric cars are no good. So that's the question, That's the car I'd I'd I'd I'd offer him.
Speaker 1:Okay. I I still I still remember the the the episode where he he raved about Model X and had lawyers in the back. I don't know if you've watched that, but the, I thought that was 4 Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That was because Elon Musk Very, very cross with him. And that's another story that I probably can't tell you on air, but he didn't he didn't like it at all, quite rightly so,
Speaker 1:I have to add. Yeah. I well, yeah. You know, I I always said to people that Top Gear is is with Clarkson was a was a kinda show entertainment show more than a car show, basically. And, you know, anybody else who, so they got a good, good information out of it, should be rethinking their choices of of of information sources.
Speaker 1:That's all the questions that I have, for you. And, you know, again, I'm conscious of time. So thank
Speaker 2:you. Not at all. A pleasure, Greg. I'm Quinta Wilson and this is Take It EV podcast. If you're interested in electric cars, you need to listen.
